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GerhardV

UniGUI support, feedback in general and the future?

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First of all let it be noted - I really enjoy working with UniGUI, understand that Farshad is flying solo (one man doing the job) and appreciate the effort.

 

BUT - we really cannot wait days for Farshad to reply to messages or email for support or direction. We all have projects to complete, others even have solutions or suggestions for UniGUI but because we do not have the full source code our hands are tied and we are totally depended on Farshad.

 

So these are the options as I see it:

  • Release the full source code and have the UniGUI community contributing - off course with all the relevant non-disclosures (NDA’s) in place.
  • FMSoft to employ more people (developers), which will be able to help with development, field the questions and handle technical support with regards to the architecture.
  • Open source the project – obviously financial implications...or maybe get Embarcadero involved?
  • Call it a day and move on - TMS WebCore is looking promising and have a support team behind them.

Please see this as constructive criticism. I truly believe that we can accelerate the development (success) of UniGUI with more hands on deck!

 

Regards,

Gerhard

 

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Hi,

 

Please see this as constructive criticism. I truly believe that we can accelerate the development (success) of UniGUI with more hands on deck!

I agree with you.

For source code, but we dealed before buy. If you use just unigui, I mean not use other 3rd party component(s) not need change delphi version, so not need sourcecode but, that questionmark always in my mind too :)

I'm interested tms webcore. they use js pack ( https://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/) I fallow in tms's demos too ( https://www.tmssoftware.com/site/tmswebcore.asp ) all of them in bigginer level still. Fallow grid loadin, its too slow. In future, They can be good alternative for unigui (I hope :) ) but this is need long time I think.

 

competition is good :)

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I don't know about TMS WebCore. I didn't look that deep but it seems that it can't really compete with uniGUI; at least for now.

 

However, I am also concerned about uniGUI being partly closed source as I have stated before. I understand completely that Farshad does not want to open source code because there are several down-sides for doing so. I think I did propose in one of my earlier posts that as a compromise, there could be some sort of dead man's switch that would trigger and source code would be released if Farshad is unable or unwilling to continue providing support for uniGUI. I know that this might sound bit grim but if this kind of protection could be implemented, it would serve both sides I believe.

 

This is just my two-cents and I posted this just to refresh this idea, not to criticise anyone.

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First of all let it be noted - I really enjoy working with UniGUI, understand that Farshad is flying solo (one man doing the job) and appreciate the effort.

 

BUT - we really cannot wait days for Farshad to reply to messages or email for support or direction. We all have projects to complete, others even have solutions or suggestions for UniGUI but because we do not have the full source code our hands are tied and we are totally depended on Farshad.

 

So these are the options as I see it:

  • Release the full source code and have the UniGUI community contributing - off course with all the relevant non-disclosures (NDA’s) in place.
  • FMSoft to employ more people (developers), which will be able to help with development, field the questions and handle technical support with regards to the architecture.
  • Open source the project – obviously financial implications...or maybe get Embarcadero involved?
  • Call it a day and move on - TMS WebCore is looking promising and have a support team behind them.

Please see this as constructive criticism. I truly believe that we can accelerate the development (success) of UniGUI with more hands on deck!

 

Regards,

Gerhard

 

ok, it is cool, Man (Farshad) was developing these components for about 10 years and now you ask him to make components free, because you have several troubles after migrate from extjs4 to BETA extjs6 :) If you ready (or somebody else) to work on developing components for free - I think Farshad can share with you several units in repository and can find work for you. It is not nessesary to make components open source if you want to help. TMS Web - my opinion it is 5-10 years before they became usefull for production. Now it is look like very very alfa version with tons of bugs in demo samples and very slow. And I don't understant which different tmsweb with Intraweb? But intraweb not popular product, I have several time trying to use it and always it finished after a week, but with Farshad's components I was able to create commercial product in several month when I never develop for web before. It is really cool components and bugs fixed very fast comparison to other components where sometimes I'm waiting month while they publish fix in next monthly release. it's also weird to hear about long waiting for fixes from the Delphi developer when Delphi themself has bugs which don't fix for years :) I think it is good idea to ask Embarcadero to make Delphi open source, or ask Microsoft for Windows. You have demo of this components, you have nice sample portal which show you almost all possibilities of UniGUI components and you bought actual version with actual functions. No one promised you that by buying a bicycle today you will have Space-X when the time to renew license will come.

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I was very surprised when I found out that these components was developed by one man. No Embarcadero no somebody other with hundreds of developers and tens millions $ of budgets can't offer at the moment and half of what we have with unigui. Developing web application became for me the same simple and fast as a usual desktop application using Delphi. I think TMS would be save a lot money if bought these components from Farshad instead developing own from scratch, but I'm not sure how it is possible to scale this framework on for ex. 1000 simultaniously users and not sure that Sencha will provide the same license politic for TMS or somebody other as they did for Farshad. As I know, Devexpress now have nothing for VCL web, maybe they would be interested in buying and further promotion under their own brand (it just only if Farshad want to sell his work). Or DevArt - UniGUI are close by name with UniDAC :)

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ok, it is cool, Man (Farshad) was developing these components for about 10 years and now you ask him to make components free, because you have several troubles after migrate from extjs4 to BETA extjs6 :) If you ready (or somebody else) to work on developing components for free - I think Farshad can share with you several units in repository and can find work for you. It is not nessesary to make components open source if you want to help. TMS Web - my opinion it is 5-10 years before they became usefull for production. Now it is look like very very alfa version with tons of bugs in demo samples and very slow. And I don't understant which different tmsweb with Intraweb? But intraweb not popular product, I have several time trying to use it and always it finished after a week, but with Farshad's components I was able to create commercial product in several month when I never develop for web before. It is really cool components and bugs fixed very fast comparison to other components where sometimes I'm waiting month while they publish fix in next monthly release. it's also weird to hear about long waiting for fixes from the Delphi developer when Delphi themself has bugs which don't fix for years :) I think it is good idea to ask Embarcadero to make Delphi open source, or ask Microsoft for Windows. You have demo of this components, you have nice sample portal which show you almost all possibilities of UniGUI components and you bought actual version with actual functions. No one promised you that by buying a bicycle today you will have Space-X when the time to renew license will come.

 

 

This is totally correct.

:)

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piracy hampers the life of those who buy the licenses, in Brazil many people use the pirate unigui, and without money does not work miracles, Farshad needs jedi level professionals to join the team, and I believe that in turkey this does not is on every corner, and I think it's a very complex project to be worked on from a distance, if something bad happens with farshad as we are?

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piracy hampers the life of those who buy the licenses, in Brazil many people use the pirate unigui, and without money does not work miracles, Farshad needs jedi level professionals to join the team, and I believe that in turkey this does not is on every corner, and I think it's a very complex project to be worked on from a distance, if something bad happens with farshad as we are?

 

Then do not bother him with bugs, let him rest and gain strength )

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ok, it is cool, Man (Farshad) was developing these components for about 10 years and now you ask him to make components free, because you have several troubles after migrate from extjs4 to BETA extjs6 :) If you ready (or somebody else) to work on developing components for free - I think Farshad can share with you several units in repository and can find work for you. It is not nessesary to make components open source if you want to help. TMS Web - my opinion it is 5-10 years before they became usefull for production. Now it is look like very very alfa version with tons of bugs in demo samples and very slow. And I don't understant which different tmsweb with Intraweb? But intraweb not popular product, I have several time trying to use it and always it finished after a week, but with Farshad's components I was able to create commercial product in several month when I never develop for web before. It is really cool components and bugs fixed very fast comparison to other components where sometimes I'm waiting month while they publish fix in next monthly release. it's also weird to hear about long waiting for fixes from the Delphi developer when Delphi themself has bugs which don't fix for years :) I think it is good idea to ask Embarcadero to make Delphi open source, or ask Microsoft for Windows. You have demo of this components, you have nice sample portal which show you almost all possibilities of UniGUI components and you bought actual version with actual functions. No one promised you that by buying a bicycle today you will have Space-X when the time to renew license will come.

 well said, and i totally agree :)

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I don't think OP even meant that Farshad should release source code for free to everyone. Many component packages are released with full source code. That does *NOT* mean that they're free.

 

Also, not releasing full source code doesn't stop pirates from doing what they are. UniGUI is pirated same way as any other component package; unfortunately.

 

// Mika

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Everyone agrees that Farshad has developed a great framework. Where many other frameworks die a silent death, uniGui has become an almost mature framework.

I understand GerhardV's remark very well. We want to develop faster if Farshad can build. Sometimes it is a few default properties for a component that you miss and
that you still have to solve with extra code in eg ClientEvents. Extra detours, extra code that you easily forget.

Like every one-man business, there will be a tipping point that you can not handle it anymore, maybe just too little turnover to hire someone extra.
That is something Farshad has to decide for itself, but personally I think that it needs extra capacity. uniGui will have to develop faster, making it even
better and more mature. As a result, other developers will certainly also become interested in uniGui. There are currently no good and mature frameworks such as uniGui.

I have also tried Elevatesoft Webbuilder but can not be compared to uniGui, much too cumbersome to link a database, for example.

TMS Webcore looks nice in the video but performance is still bad but will quickly develop into a mature framework. There is a team behind and TMS is of course known to Delphi developers.

I am still happy with uniGui but uniGui needs to become more mature more quickly, to connect faster with the new version of ExtJS. Components must be
provided with more standard properties, as with the standard delphi components.The above is, of course, no reproach to Farshad because it is incredibly
handsome what he has developed.

 

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It is easy to say "hire additional staff" to people who haven't that kind of skills. First of all Farshad need to hire sales people because he already have unique completed product for Delphi and Pascal which work and pays for itself in a few months. You really can fast, easy and cheap (compare to Java or .Net developers salary) create web application for businnes which need process operation in online. Simple CRM or similar application for view and edit data in browser you can develop in week. And when he will have good sales than he will able to hire additional stuff. Nobody know about these components. No matter how funny it sound but today most advertising for UniGUI made by ExirBox - man who hacked this components.

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I do not think that Farshad needs to hire salesmen but must make a choice about how to go on for the futher. I think there are a few options:
if you develop further at this rate you will be overtaken by the competition with other products like TMS for example

- focus primarily on development and inventory what is really needed for an "adult" product. For the time being, no new features, joining ExtJS versions/templatessic state. Service & support via forum as it is now.
- be taken over by competitors
- provide extra developers

The hiring of sales people only makes sense if you want to reach a large target group and a product is ready for all parts including service and support.

I have presented uniGui in the Netherlands to Barnsten 2-3 years ago and they are selling it now. This can also be done at the distributors in other countries.

If the product and service and support are good, the target group can also be reached through other ways, you do not need salesmen.

I myself also faced this dilemma with our Event Management Software. For me, Delphi and programming is not my main task but a hobby that got out of hand.
This software is seasonal in relation to the period of festivals, good and extensive software solution, little to no competition, self developed etc.
I didn't had the time to promote the software to other events or provide service and support during the event or on multiple events at the same time ...


 

On my own i can't do developing, and promoting and service/support and multiple events. Now I work together with someone who does
the events for me and that gives me the time to develop.

You can already develop beautiful web applications with uniGui and we see that every day on the forum. But there is more need among current
developers to continue faster. As mentioned earlier there will be a time where you have to make choices and that applies to Farshad but also to
the developers.

I do not know what developers will do if it turns out that TMS WebCore can deliver a comparable product within 6 months because they can develop faster.
I would be sorry if I have to switch because it has more functionality for example.

uniGui is a very nice framework with all the advantages of Delphi, everyone agrees. Can not hurt to think about the future :)

About the sponsor..ExirBox but also irDevelopers and Board4All

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I don't understand those who presents TMS Web as competitor of UniGUI - I'm sure that TMS will not have stable version in next 2 years and I'm sure that it is more likely DevExpress will develope something for web than TMS finished own components. What I see on TMS site - it is stillbirths components with bugs and very slow. And what difference beatween these components and Intraweb? Why you don't use Intraweb if you like "Hellow word" video of TMS components? I also disagree fundamentally that first of all you should add functionality instead sales. It is not possible to develope faster than TMS and Embarcadero and there is no any sence to spend time on add additional funcional when you already have working product. You need to promote and sale product this year why you have not competitors and after year you will have money to compete with TMS and other instead sit on the chair and develop functions which need 1 from 1000 companies. All good products without sales died or became opensource and died after a while.

 

UniGUI need Linux and Load balancing to have more scalability - and I don't understand why Farshad change priority and next will do responsive design - this is pampering and almost all bussines applications haven't responsive design, nobody work from smartphone, a few peoples work using tablets. Responsive design we need for site, e-shop, forums, but not for bussines application and I think that no sence wasting time now for that. Linux - this is a substantial saving of money on servers. Load balancing - scalability to 1000 simultaniously users, for big enterprise. Responsive design... toys for housewives? 

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Unigui and tms webcore not equal, if I'm not missunderstood tms, use FNC pack, so can build same code to multi platform. https://www.tmssoftware.com/site/tmsfncstudio.asp

webcore is defferent then intraweb, webcore use js pack (link in my first message)

http://forums.unigui.com/index.php?/topic/9621-unigui-102-beta/?p=54034

Farshad said forget linux support in new future :(  first target is finish new version (sencha 6.5 support) and atc.

I wish to first target hasto be linux, becouse server price extra more cost for us. nearly double price for windows and mssql server.

If I'm not misunderstood, linux support will be after resubscription date :blink:

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I think it is only said that TMS can be a possible competitor. Nobody knows how fast or how good it will be. TMS, of course, also sees opportunities but can also die a silent death just as quickly. Many frameworks have already been developed and just as quickly went into the refrigerator. With every framework it is waiting to see what it will be ... that was also with uniGUI. I myself do not have a need for Intraweb because it's not working for me and our application

 

Promotion through uniGui can be done through various channels and there is no sales department required. The market in frameworks and components is very small. The costs for a sales department in relation to the turnover on the framework is very high. You have to sell a lot of licenses to be able to pay a month's salary and all social charges.

 

Most component suppliers have started like Farshad and when they grow they invest in developers. Look at Elevatesoft, FastReport, DevExpress, Raize components, QuickReport etc. all smaller companies and do not need a sales department to sell their product. Developers look for each other, - like on the forum, and hear and see products, research components and see what is applicable. I have never bought a component through a sales department but by researching on the internet or hearing from other developers.

 

The world has changed ... also from Windows business applications to web applications. That is what I think most of us are doing. We use uniGui to transform our Windows applications into web applications or build new applications in uniGui. That is not for nothing. A web application that is not browser and device independent will not save it in the near future. Not for nothing do suppliers build multitenant SAAS solutions.

 

Of course there are still many standard Windows business applications, but they will also change compleetly/partially and support mobile (device) use.

 

When I look in the Netherlands where I work for a company with 2,500 employees with 400 applications, everyone has a Windows Surface or a Dell laptop as their workplace. Every desk is equipped with a docking station, keyboard, mouse and screen. No more fixed workplace but a flexible workplace. You can work in a conference room, on the train or anywhere else. The new workplace concept that we are developing will be even more based on mobile devices and thus responsive applications. Many software suppliers already make the choice to build a new version as SAAS applications and browser and device independent.

The biggest example and success is Microsoft in this. From traditional Windows Office applications to Office365 or Office Online and works on any device..and...it's responsive design.

 

So it is a short turn to say that responsive is for housewives. Perhaps the use of tablets differs per country. Within our company is 78% tablet and 22% laptop user.

 

When I look at Windows or Linux VPS servers, the prices are not far apart. But I can imagine that this is different per country.

 


 


 

And on a VPS server you can of course install mySQL for free

 

Still, I see little Linux business application developed and choose software companies for Microsoft / Azure.

 

It is good to think about the choices we are going to make ourselves. I am particularly interested in the road that Farshad is going to take.

I can not imagine that he will not follow this topic :). Everyone has their own view of things and I appreciate and respect that...and it keeps a discussion lively.

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I read the whole thread.  I appreciate your feedback!

 

I will add my comment later when I have enough time to fully address all of your concerns mentioned here in this thread. All I can say for know is that I'm aware of many of your concerns and already working to improve the product, customer relation, support and etc. As I told I'll add my full comment here later.

 

Thanks

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Ruslan

 

Don't have to be expensive. Depend on amount of cores you need. These are legal license and i buy them also there.

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=shop&q=windows%202016%20sever%20license#spd=15133507900565528223&spf=1523045369736

 

for a VPS server you don't need a Windows Server license..that's included

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Ruslan

 

Don't have to be expensive. Depend on amount of cores you need. These are legal license and i buy them also there.

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=shop&q=windows%202016%20sever%20license#spd=15133507900565528223&spf=1523045369736

 

for a VPS server you don't need a Windows Server license..that's included

 

Yes, VPS is good, but I use Windows Services and my app run additional EXE files - these I will not able do on vps

 

About Windows Surface - display resolution 2256 x 1504 - it is more than my 27" monitor. I thought that adaptive design is using only for small resolutions and in most case only for view data. I'm not against Responsive design but it can be implemented after more important things. No one need you SaaS with AD, when you can't process more than 100 online users.

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Thank you for the notion Farshad.

 

Guys please, this is NOT a thread to compare UniGUI against the still developing TMS Webcore, it was mentioned as an example only.

 

What I can say is that their is a definite improvement in UniGUI with Sencha V6.5.3.

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My 2 cents. I'm co-owner of small soft company and main developerr in it for a last 16 years. We're use Farshad's components and very glad with it. Our politic is to don't use closed-source components. UniGUI is a rare exception of this rule. If we'll found comparable replacement for UniGUI with opened source it's big probabilty that we move to other one. Rewriting is not afraid us, not for first time. Therefore, it's important to understand that it's very important for us. In the future we have plan to buy additional licenses, when the rest of the team will start working with components.

I think that both of responsive desing and linux support are important. For different reasons.

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I am just about to hopefully start using uniGUI for a project and to be honest it does scare me not having full source. There are many reasons that Farshad might not be able to continue with the development, some out of his control. At the very least I'd like to know that the latest source was always stored in Escrow so that if something happened, the developers reliant on the product could carry on.
I'd certainly be willing to pay an additional annual fee just to know this was the case. 

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A simple way to solve this would be to designate a couple of people 

as trustees, having access to the source code if something extraordinary happens.

 

All that is needed is the contact information to these people.

 

Or the complete source could be distributed but encrypted, and

an automated password retrieval system could be automatically activated

in case of the extraordinary, being dependent on continual extension

of timeout, and requiring current account pw for login.

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On 4/27/2018 at 9:12 PM, Tokay said:

My 2 cents. I'm co-owner of small soft company and main developerr in it for a last 16 years. We're use Farshad's components and very glad with it. Our politic is to don't use closed-source components. UniGUI is a rare exception of this rule. If we'll found comparable replacement for UniGUI with opened source it's big probabilty that we move to other one. Rewriting is not afraid us, not for first time. Therefore, it's important to understand that it's very important for us. In the future we have plan to buy additional licenses, when the rest of the team will start working with components.

I think that both of responsive desing and linux support are important. For different reasons.

For what it's worth, we generally employ the same policy -- avoid the use of closed source components whenever possible, UniGUI being essentially the only exception we've allowed in this policy for a very long time as it is such a good product.

Still, I really continue to worry and dislike the level of risk we're carrying due to the size of FMSoft, e.g. if something happens to Farshad or FMSoft this will have quite serious consequences.  It is entirely within the realm of possibilities to end up in a situation where FMSoft stops trading with no way to obtain the source code to UniGUI, and consequently that all the investment into a UniGUI based solution then ends up having to be abandoned and entirely rewritten due to lack of access to source and consequent inability to upgrade to newer versions of the Delphi and web ecosystems. 

(To add this is not just a purely hypothetical possibility either, I've actually worked with a company once where exactly this happened and a system had to be replaced at great cost and trauma to the business due to another business having gone under, so much so that they then negotiated special escrow agreements with a new provider to ensure they would have access to a product's source should that partner business cease trading etc... The whole issue is worrying enough that, as much as I like UniGUI, I do continue to consider the alternatives and will likely consider switching to eliminate this risk if something becomes available that is competitive with UniGUI.)

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